Ribbon Forge Burner

[Robert Suter]

Grant,
Do you think you could convince Mr. Wailes to post some information here? We (read that as I) should not burden John with endless questions with no help.
Bob

[Grant]

JNewman said:

I forget which blower I bought last year from the Kaynes I will have to take a look tomorrow. I assume you meant to say his blower is too small not his burner?

No, I meant what I said!

[Robert Suter]

I spoke to John Emmerling on the phone today, he’s a nice guy, and was willing to answer any question. However, he told me he’s very busy, and has little time to post and computers were not his thing, still I hope he’ll have a little time to come by and give the thread a boost. John explained to me that the burner is as simple as it looks. He stated the problem with making long burners is unequal expansion between the castable and the frame of the burner. His recommendation for long forges is multiple burners no longer than 10 inches, he said any longer and they tend to crumble quickly, and went on to say that three 10 inch burners would be good for a 40 inch forge! Any sword makers need a forge you can heat treat in?

I asked him why he thought that after over 5 years after he wrote his original article, and others have demonstrated how effective the design is, that it was not in wide spread use, he said he did not know. I’m scratching my head too. In my opinion it’s a case of those who are unable to figure out the air pressure to gas ratio and have nobody with experience to guide them, or just don’t have enough air pressure from too small of fan, and have voiced their frustration without an answer, perhaps the forum members here can change that. As for the question of burner size to forge size ratio.

The Pine Ridge Burner web page has a burner to cubic foot chart, can anyone attest to the correctness? They state a single 10 inch burner using LP gas is sufficient to operate a 2.5 to 3.5 cf chamber. That’s an incredibly large area for a single burner! If it can evenly heat that much area, or even half that, what can I say, ‘we doan need no stinkin’ venturi burners’. I need to get the materials together and get to building the forge.
Bob

[John Emmerling]

I spoke to John Emmerling on the phone today, he’s a nice guy, and was willing to answer any question. However, he told me he’s very busy, and has little time to post and computers were not his thing, still I hope he’ll have a little time to come by and give the thread a boost. John explained to me that the burner is as simple as it looks. He stated the problem with making long burners is unequal expansion between the castable and the frame of the burner. His recommendation for long forges is multiple burners no longer than 10 inches, he said any longer and they tend to crumble quickly, and went on to say that three 10 inch burners would be good for a 40 inch forge! Any sword makers need a forge you can heat treat in?

I asked him why he thought that after over 5 years after he wrote his original article, and others have demonstrated how effective the design is, that it was not in wide spread use, he said he did not know. I’m scratching my head too. In my opinion it’s a case of those who are unable to figure out the air pressure to gas ratio and have nobody with experience to guide them, or just don’t have enough air pressure from too small of fan, and have voiced their frustration without an answer, perhaps the forum members here can change that. As for the question of burner size to forge size ratio.

The Pine Ridge Burner web page has a burner to cubic foot chart, can anyone attest to the correctness? They state a single 10 inch burner using LP gas is sufficient to operate a 2.5 to 3.5 cf chamber. That’s an incredibly large area for a single burner! If it can evenly heat that much area, or even half that, what can I say, ‘we doan need no stinkin’ venturi burners’. I need to get the materials together and get to building the forge.
Bob

I've seen the Pine Ridge burners and the are well made for the $. That being said, I still like making my own in any configuration I want. A bag of refractory will make many burners, and by keeping the wood dam and some crayons handy, recasting a burner is easy.

Also, it is true about the volume the burner will heat. I used a 3x3x10" long burner to heat a 2cu ft forge that had 3" of kaowool coated w/ITC 100. It easily went to welding temp using natural gas.

John

[Robert Suter]

Guys, John told me about the 3” of kaowool and ITC 100 and how he easily forgewelds Damascus billets with his forge, I forgot to mention it. See John we need you here, I’m glad you’re watching, I’m bound to lead everybody astray with my rambling and forgetfulness.
Bob

[Dave Hammer]

This is a very long post, but hopefully it will be useful for those of you considering using ribbon burners...

I’d like to summarize my experience with the Pine Ridge Ribbon burner.

First of all, all the issues I first had with the burner were because of my un-familiarity with them, how blowers work and the suggestions that Pine Ridge provides for users of their burner. I bought the burner last year after reading that they were much quieter than other burners.

I finally got around to building a forge with the burner a few weeks ago. I already had a blower I had bought from Blacksmith Depot that was being sold as suitable for propane forges (their $100, 112 CFM blower). I thought this blower would be adequate.

I have the smallest burner that Pine Ridge sells. It is 4 x 4 inches. Pine Ridge states this burner will work with one to five inches of water column pressure. I built a forge with a 10 inch cylinder, 16 inches long. I used two inches of thermal blanket and put in a refractory floor.

My first experience with the forge was not very satisfying. The mild steel I was heating barely got beyond an orange heat, not the yellow I am used to forging at. This was using the blower at full out speed and adjusting the volume of propane for the best flame. The best flame is achieved in the same manner as adjusting an acetylene torch. You fiddle with the mixture till you get a stable flame. I use a high pressure propane regulator cranked up…. and control propane by volume with a needle valve. The air can be controlled with a dimmer (type) switch, or an air gate.

Without writing a book about how I learned the following, I will summarize what I know now…
1. The blower I first used would not, with the ribbon burner in the forge I built, produce the heat I wanted.
2. The blower I was using would provide 2.5 inches of water column pressure (I learned how to make a simple Manometer and measure active pressure).
3. Once I replaced the blower with one that would provide more active pressure, I was easily able to get the heat I want.
4. The Pine Ridge burner works amazingly well.

Pine Ridge recommends that the burn chamber NOT be less than .75 cubic feet for the burner I bought (I had misplaced the instructions I received with the burner). The forge I built has a burn chamber less than a half cubic foot. Although I was achieving the heat I want (with the right blower), I will bend to their recommendation and build another forge. I’m hoping to get even better results with it.

I believe these burners will work in all types of forges (sides and/or ends open), but the best heat will be provided with mostly closed forges. If you are using aspirated burners now and take advantage of that "blast" area, you won't have that anymore. If the forge has a lot of open area, I expect most of the heat will leave the confines of the forge.

A couple lessons about blowers I learned (primarily from Jeff Reinhardt). CFM ratings for blowers do not tell you what you need to know for blowers that are going to be used where there are air pressure requirements (e.g. on blown forges, at least not in every case). The blower has to be able to provide not only volume, but pressure. Blowers that provide the most pressure usually have “paddles” pushing air, rather than a squirrel cage. With most squirrel cage blowers (and some paddle blowers, depending upon design), if the air passage way is severely restricted, the squirrel cage will spin without continuing to try to force much air out (if any). When pressure is required for an application (like this), if the air passage is restricted, the blower needs to continue forcing air out, thus producing air pressure. One of the ways to measure that pressure (force), is with a water column, using a Manometer. Five inches of water column means that the air pressure pushes a column of water five inches. A simple manometer can be made with a clear plastic hose. All you need to do… is provide a port in the pressurized area to connect the hose to, then make a “U” with the plastic hose. Pour water in the hose so you have a “U” of water in the hose, without water getting near the burner. Put a mark on the hose (with a sharpie or tape) where the water is initially (blower not on). Turn on the blower and see how far the air pressure pushes the water. Measure that distance in inches and double it (the water is pushed down on one side of the loop and up on the other side, so if the water level changes one inch, the water has moved two inches). The diameter of the hose doesn’t matter (pressure is per square inch of surface). To make the port, I just drilled a hole in the air line (just below the burner) , put in 1/8" NPT threads, then screwed in a one inch nipple. Slipped the hose on it to do the measurements. When I was finished measuring, I just pulled the hose off and put a cap on the nipple. The pictures below were taken before I put the pressure measurement port in. I drilled the hole in the galvanized elbow just below the burner. The blower in the pictures is the one that produces 2.5 inches of water column pressure.

I found another blower I had that would produce 7.5 inches of water column pressure. With that blower, the forge works great. It worked satisfactorily at 5 inches, better at more.

Without a doubt, ribbon burners produce more heat with higher air pressures (and more propane). This is clearly stated by Pine Ridge on their web site. My forge was working with the blower producing two inches of water column pressure, but not at it’s best capability.

As I said before, the mixture of air and propane has to be adjustable and is set in the same way you set an Oxy/Acetylene torch flame. The sound and behavior of the flame makes it easy to set the combination. Start with a small flame, then increase the intensity. If you are not getting a good flame, increase the air. If that doesn’t produce the flame you want, bring the air back down a bit and increase the volume of propane . Then step up both to get the flame you want. The sound of the burner (light roar), as well as the elimination of the dragon breath tell you what the optimum combinations are. The burner can be set to work at many combinations of air pressure and volume of propane. The more air pressure (and propane), the more heat the burner will produce.

These are GREAT burners.

Now to get back to the initial reason I bought one… NOISE.

The burner is definitely quieter… The fan may not be. I have two fans that will produce enough pressure. Neither of them are as quiet as I would like. I’m sure there are fans out there that are quiet and will work. I’m still looking for one that doesn’t cost a fortune.

I LOVE the information provided about how to build these burners yourself, but I feel compelled to offer one bit of advice of caution. If you do build one, be sure you are a competent enough welder to make leak free welds (under pressure). It is NOT easy, even if you are fairly competent at welding. If you can't, we will probably be reading about you in the newspaper. Propane does not disperse into the air gracefully, it pools on the floor.

[david hyde]

Dave, thanks for taking the time to post all that useful info. I've been thinking about revamping my gas forge for awhile. Some of the things that I'm weighing up are going from atmospheric to blown, maybe a temperature controller, putting more thermal mass into it, an extractor hood to stop blasting all the hot exhaust gas into my workshop (or maybe look at at recuperative deign) ...... and now all this discssion about ribbon burners is yet more to add to the mix.

[Grant]

OK Dave, I guess I had missed the part about the 112 CFM blower. You're right about needing pressure with the ribbon burner. You could either use a bigger blower or a larger burner. You can push more fuel/air mix with more pressure or with more holes. I do think the 164 CFM blower would do the job, but a bigger burner would be better. With straight pipe burners, I see a lot of forges running the 112.

[JNewman]

Thanks for the long post Dave. I wonder if there is a design differerence between John's burners and the Pine Ridge burners that causes a difference in air pressure requirements. I see Pine Ridge has low pressure burners and high pressure burners and you mentioned that you have the low pressure, and maybe John's require less pressure still.

[Grant]

Yeah, probably, kinda. Just that at a given pressure you can only push so much through each hole of a certain size. So, you use more pressure, more holes or bigger holes.